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小木虫论坛-学术科研互动平台 » 生物医药区 » 药学 » 药代动力学 » 为什么要肝门静脉取血
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
引用回帖:
17楼: Originally posted by richbird at 2014-06-19 17:34:23
代谢组学会受吸收药物和药物代谢的双重影响，蛋白组学受到的影响相对较少。因为是复方，化合物成分复杂。但是对于多数药物而言，会结合在血浆蛋白上。当然组织器官也有有一定的蛋白结合，假如没有特异性结合或者分布 ...

http://www.mcponline.org/content/12/5/1226.short    这是原文网址  他的方法那些都在Supporting Information 里
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21楼2014-06-19 21:22:52
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
引用回帖:
17楼: Originally posted by richbird at 2014-06-19 17:34:23
代谢组学会受吸收药物和药物代谢的双重影响，蛋白组学受到的影响相对较少。因为是复方，化合物成分复杂。但是对于多数药物而言，会结合在血浆蛋白上。当然组织器官也有有一定的蛋白结合，假如没有特异性结合或者分布 ...

把方法的英语原文贴出来吧，避免英语理解错了的原因

Animal sampling and handing
The animals were randomly assigned to 10 groups of 6 rats each as follows: control, HI, YCHT, D, G, R, DG, DR, GR and DGR groups. The rats in the control group were given distilled water for 8 consecutive days and anesthetized via an intraperitoneal injection of 1% pentobarbital sodium (0.15 ml/100 g body weight) on day 9. The rats in the HI group were orally administrated 20% CCL4 (1 ml/kg body weight) for 8 consecutive days (at 6:00 p.m.), and on day 9, the rats were anesthetized as in the control group. Simultaneously, other groups were administrated CCL4 and various treatments for 9 consecutive days, then anesthetized as in the control group. The rats were orally given 1 ml/100 g each, and the doses of the three components used in this study were administered in accordance with the “Shanghanlun”. Blood was collected from the hepatic portal vein, and plasma was separated via centrifugation at 4,500 rpm for 5 min at 4°C, flash frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored at -80°C until the liver function tests and metabolomics and proteomics analyses were performed. The plasma ALT, AST, ALP, GSH-PX and SOD activities and MDA, TG, GT, CHOL, TP, D-BIL and T-BIL contents were measured according to the manufacturer’s instructions. The rat livers were removed immediately after plasma collection and stored at -70°C until analysis. Urine was collected daily (at 6:00 a.m.) from the metabolic cages at ambient temperature throughout the entire procedure and centrifuged at 10,000 rpm at 4°C for 5 min; the supernatants were then stored frozen at -20°C for subsequent metabolomic analysis.
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22楼2014-06-19 21:27:10
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
引用回帖:
19楼: Originally posted by work037 at 2014-06-19 21:00:45
还是把你看的文献贴出来，我们才好知道来龙去脉，才好一同分析

Animal sampling and handing
The animals were randomly assigned to 10 groups of 6 rats each as follows: control, HI, YCHT, D, G, R, DG, DR, GR and DGR groups. The rats in the control group were given distilled water for 8 consecutive days and anesthetized via an intraperitoneal injection of 1% pentobarbital sodium (0.15 ml/100 g body weight) on day 9. The rats in the HI group were orally administrated 20% CCL4 (1 ml/kg body weight) for 8 consecutive days (at 6:00 p.m.), and on day 9, the rats were anesthetized as in the control group. Simultaneously, other groups were administrated CCL4 and various treatments for 9 consecutive days, then anesthetized as in the control group. The rats were orally given 1 ml/100 g each, and the doses of the three components used in this study were administered in accordance with the “Shanghanlun”. Blood was collected from the hepatic portal vein, and plasma was separated via centrifugation at 4,500 rpm for 5 min at 4°C, flash frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored at -80°C until the liver function tests and metabolomics and proteomics analyses were performed. The plasma ALT, AST, ALP, GSH-PX and SOD activities and MDA, TG, GT, CHOL, TP, D-BIL and T-BIL contents were measured according to the manufacturer’s instructions. The rat livers were removed immediately after plasma collection and stored at -70°C until analysis. Urine was collected daily (at 6:00 a.m.) from the metabolic cages at ambient temperature throughout the entire procedure and centrifuged at 10,000 rpm at 4°C for 5 min; the supernatants were then stored frozen at -20°C for subsequent metabolomic analysis.
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23楼2014-06-19 21:28:10
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
谢谢大家得帮助了，第一次这么多回复，好感动啊
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24楼2014-06-19 21:57:38
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richbird

捐助贵宾 (著名写手)

小木虫二手科学家
引用回帖:
22楼: Originally posted by 茜草科 at 2014-06-19 21:27:10
把方法的英语原文贴出来吧，避免英语理解错了的原因

Animal sampling and handing
The animals were randomly assigned to 10 groups of 6 rats each as follows: control, HI, YCHT, D, G, R, DG, DR, GR an ...

作者对造模药物、治疗药物、采血具体时间三者的关系没有交代清楚。但是作者所用的三个药物，半衰期都不长。而且即便是采集肝门静脉血，假如采血时间在给药时间后几个小时，那么血液已经在全身经历了n个循环了，已经是代谢过的血液。所以，假如仅仅是为了避开肝脏代谢，我觉得意义不大。但是血液经过肝脏后，会发生一系列的生理变化，比如三大物质代谢和转运，血浆蛋白的更新。这些变化或许对代谢组或者蛋白组发生一定影响。但是这些影响同时也间接反应了肝脏的功能，所以个人看法是采用统一的没有污染的采血方法即可，不建议眼眶采血（污染），但是其他如颈动脉插管也可以。
最后，我赞同你的观点：对照组应当和治疗组保持相同的给药方法和持续时间。即便差一天可能不会产生非常大的影响，但是这并未得到验证，还是存在一定风险。
你所说的
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一步步实现自己的理想，永远不要停下脚步。
25楼2014-06-20 09:15:29
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
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25楼: Originally posted by richbird at 2014-06-20 09:15:29
作者对造模药物、治疗药物、采血具体时间三者的关系没有交代清楚。但是作者所用的三个药物，半衰期都不长。而且即便是采集肝门静脉血，假如采血时间在给药时间后几个小时，那么血液已经在全身经历了n个循环了，已经 ...

谢谢你的帮助 很有条理  还有个问题想请教 关于眼眶取血 你指的污染是质量不好还是容易溶血？ 还有之前说的预防给药 治疗性给药和同时性给药 他们的优缺点怎么看  作者几年前一篇文章同样课题 没研究协同作用什么的 只是证明茵陈蒿有效 是预防性给药 我感觉这三种给药方式应该在后期处理上会有些不同

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26楼2014-06-20 10:27:26
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richbird

捐助贵宾 (著名写手)

小木虫二手科学家
引用回帖:
26楼: Originally posted by 茜草科 at 2014-06-20 10:27:26
谢谢你的帮助 很有条理  还有个问题想请教 关于眼眶取血 你指的污染是质量不好还是容易溶血？ 还有之前说的预防给药 治疗性给药和同时性给药 他们的优缺点怎么看  作者几年前一篇文章同样课题 没研究协同作用什么的 ...

眼眶取血血液并非直接进入收集的管子里，而是首先和眼角膜、眼睑接触后进入。这就带来一些额外未知的影响因素。在可能的情况下，能避免最好避免。提前给药和同时给药都属于预防性给药，即在未产生病理时即给予药物干涉。这种应用虽然重要，但是应用面比较小。古语所说上医治未病，下医治已病。但是就经济和名气而言，下医最好。所以治疗性给药是研究的重点。后期处理应该不会有太大改变，但是对于疗效的机理解释会有根本性变化。
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一步步实现自己的理想，永远不要停下脚步。
27楼2014-06-20 12:36:50
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茜草科

新虫 (小有名气)
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27楼: Originally posted by richbird at 2014-06-20 12:36:50
眼眶取血血液并非直接进入收集的管子里，而是首先和眼角膜、眼睑接触后进入。这就带来一些额外未知的影响因素。在可能的情况下，能避免最好避免。提前给药和同时给药都属于预防性给药，即在未产生病理时即给予药物 ...

谢谢啦~~~初入代谢这一块，有很多问题还很模糊，多谢！
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28楼2014-06-20 13:56:13
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albel

铁虫 (著名写手)
最近也看到了这篇文献，我觉得是不是因为采用肝门静脉取血，首先可能就是后期实验要做免疫组化，要求肝组织中无血，需要进行肝灌流，也要进行相关手术，涉及到肝门静脉，所以在此就进行肝门静脉的手术，也节约的时间；其次因为取血量可能比眼眶取血大，利于满足后期生化分析和代谢组学分析的血量要求。
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29楼2014-07-28 20:50:59
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