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abbottfdu木虫 (正式写手)
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[交流]
【交流】王锦山对发现活性自由基聚合的描述
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发信人: wangatrp1994 (atrpinventor), 信区: Macromolecules 标 题: Re: ATRP发明争议的质疑 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Sep 23 15:08:20 2009, 美东) 同学， 首先感谢你的关心。 本不想回答你的问题，因为你的证明说明你不是一个很好的Professional. 知道吗，Ma 和Sawa在做Living Radical 前，都是从事Living Cationic Polymn. 但你的问题又很好，因为它也是很多人的质疑：谁是ATRP的原始构思和实践人？ 因为我在准备Legal Action， 在此许多事情不宜详述。 敬请查看下列文献，一个有常识的人都会得出相同的结论： 1，in C&E News (June 5, p46 & 48, 1995), ATRP was reported as a new living polymerization in which only Ma's name was mentioned without me even though the report was based on the first ATRP paper in JACS with myself as first author. After I fought with him and C&EN, Ma later issued a statement saying that I co-developed ATRP (June 19, p5, 1995), 2, If you gather all Ma's publications before ATRP, you can get the following conclusions: 1), He was a macro-kinetics investigator using software and macro-kinetic data instead of an inventor; 2), He always worked on other people systems as a quick follower and publisher from living cationic polymerization to living radical polymerization, except one very hot publication (A “living” poly(vinyl acetate) can be prepared using an Al(i-Bu)3: Bpy:TEMPO initiating system ( Mardare, Matyjaszewski Macromolecules, 27, 645 (1994)). This very hot paper made Ma the rising star in living radical polymerization field at that time and made me to join his team. However, after ATRP, Ma never went back to that "famous" system. The main reason is as following: this publication very shamefully made Ma a laughing material in 1993-1994 in polymer community, since no one worldwide including all his students can re-produce the published results and later all people found out that the key data in that paper were mostly faked (he confessed to me while I talked to him how Du Pont was very angry at them). Without ATRP, Ma would be a laughing material forever. 3, Look at my publications (more than 15) and patents (more than 5) during my 4 years PhD research with respectful Prs. Teyssie and Jerome. I made very significant contribution to structure of active species, polymerization and sterochemistry mechanism, and new process and catalysts for living anionic polymerization. After everything is settled down, I will tell you how I conceptualized ATRP based on concept of living anionic polymerization. 4, Could you pls compare the experimental sections in his publications before and after ATRP? You will know who invented ATRP. While coming to his lab in 1994, I was astonished how his PhD students and Postdoc. conducted air-sensitive polymerization. What I only can say, it was even much less professional and strict than we did polymerization in China in 1985. Thanks to my very high quality training in Teyssie's lab, it was me to set new experimental standards that lead to ATRP invention. Sorry that I can only give you some public information at the time being. Thank you again for your concern and support. Jin-Shan Wang, a real inventor of ATRP. 发信人: agi (hit for winners), 信区: Macromolecules 标 题: ATRP发明争议的质疑 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Wed Sep 23 08:44:14 2009, 美东) 首先，如果王锦山确实是发明人(完成构思和实践)，我们应该全力支持。不过看了一些 讨论，我有一些疑问。 ATRP其实和活性阳离子很像，但和活性阴离子差别很大。王博士似乎从来没有从事过自 由基聚合得研究，那么他的构思从何而来？他博士作得阴离子聚合，然后就可以构思出 ATRP,我觉得这个跨度挺大的。如果他真的有这个水平，博士后结束后，应该自立门户 ，把老马比下去也是可能得，至少比那些后起之秀比下去没什么问题。 活性阳离子发现得时间是1984-1986，早在ATRP之前。而老马和SAWAMOTO在这方面都有 研究和论文发表，特别是SAWAMOTO更是第一个发表活性阳离子聚合得人。依据ATRP和活 性阳离子得相似性，SAWAMOTO在活性自由基方面作出突破，不是很大得意外。老马呢？ 也不奇怪。他1996年主编了“阳离子聚合”一书，里面有不少重要章节由他主笔，包括 "controlled/living carbocationic polymerization" (SAWAMOTO二作)。既然1996年出版 ，老马应该是1995年 写成，约稿就更早了。看来老马对活性阳离子聚合早有领悟，那 么ATRP得发明绝对不是空穴来风。 到底是老王指导了老马，还是老马指导了老王？好像应该是后者。当然我不了解内情， 尤其是他们两人据说打了官司，官司细节也无从得知。 |
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9楼2009-10-03 20:05:54
3楼2009-10-01 15:59:17
abbottfdu
木虫 (正式写手)
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4楼2009-10-01 19:07:44
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小木虫(金币+0.5):给个红包，谢谢回帖交流
小木虫(金币+0.5):给个红包，谢谢回帖交流
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发信人: wonderlich (左岸，遁去), 信区: Macromolecules 标 题: ATRP总结 发信站: BBS 未名空间站 (Sat Sep 26 15:42:01 2009, 美东) 经过数天的讨论， 整个过程的来龙去脉基本上比较清楚。 下面就要争取更多人理解整个过程。 王锦山需要做的事： 完整回顾自己从在比利时Liege大学从事活性阴离子聚合 到博士毕业后在此领域以及对活性自由基聚合关注并构想 思路，然后在Matyjaszewski组做博士后迅速成功发现前人 所未发现的卤化亚铜体系的过程。写一篇英文综述： The Discovery of Atom Transfer Radical Polymerization: My Personal Perspective. 发表在越有影响越好的杂志上。 极力用ATRP原创性思想和发现将自己在Wang, Matyjaszewski, Sawamoto三人获奖小组中牢牢锁定。 我们能做的事： （1）做ATRP的发表文章，应该用"Wang and Matyjaszewski discovered... and Sawamoto et al discovered..."句式，这也是符合如果文章只有 两个作者如何叙述的惯例。 （2）多宣传王锦山在ATRP的独立性贡献。在国外工作的人士在组内的 文献会议上主动介绍ATRP，给更多的人科普。如果有教职的，在课上讲。 （3）有与诺贝尔委员会成员以及具有提名权的人士熟识的，在合适 机会下，对ATRP的重要性以及王锦山的贡献给予表达。 （4）请更多在欧洲的积极转帖，尤其是北欧四国的当地华人论坛。 |
6楼2009-10-02 12:49:24